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Stream: deprecated: translation

Topic: "Recoltes et Semailles" English translation requests

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 08 2020 at 08:33):

What would be an appropriate translation of the phrase, " On était juifsla plupart, et quand on était averti (par la police locale) qu’il y aurait des rafles de la Gestapo,on allait se cacher dans les bois pour une nuit ou deux, par petits groupes de deux ou trois,sans trop nous rendre compte qu’il y allait bel et bien de notre peau. "

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 08 2020 at 08:34):

The following translation was suggested: "Most of us were Jewish, and when we got warned (by the local police) that there were raids by the Gestapo(secret police of Nazi Germany) we were going to hide in the woods for a night or two, in small groups of size two or three, without realizing much that it saved our skin."

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 08 2020 at 08:35):

I think that the following would be a better translation, "Most of us were Jews, and when we were warned (by the local police) that there would be raids by the Gestapo we would go to hide in the woods for a night or two, in small groups of size two or three, without realizing much that it saved our skin." (Although I don't understand the reference for "skin" here.) Any suggestions?

Jason Erbele (Oct 08 2020 at 14:23):

"Saved our skin" = "saved our lives". It sounds natural to my (native English speaker) ear. Hopefully that answers your question.

Other colloquial forms: "Saved our butts", "Saved our hides", "Saved our bacon". The latter may not be in good taste, considering pigs are unclean according to Jewish law.

John Baez (Oct 08 2020 at 16:24):

"Save our skin" is a good colloquial expression for "save our lives".

David Michael Roberts (Oct 08 2020 at 23:00):

Depending on how colloquial the French is, "saved our butts" works too :-)

David Michael Roberts (Oct 08 2020 at 23:01):

The other bolded words/phrases make it smoother, I should add. Jew/Jewish both seem fine, though.

John Baez (Oct 08 2020 at 23:51):

Jew is better, I'd say.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 17 2020 at 14:36):

What would be an appropriate translation of the sentence, "Peut-être parcequ’ils avaient tendance, à force, à ressembler un peu trop les uns aux autres ; mais surtout, jecrois, parce qu’ils tombaient un peu trop du ciel, comme ça à la queue-leue-leue, sans dire d’oùils venaient ni où ils allaient."

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 17 2020 at 14:37):

Google Translate says that: "Perhaps because they tended, by force, to look a little too much to each other; but above all, I believe, because they were falling a little too much from the sky, like that in a single line, without saying where they came from or where they were going."

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 17 2020 at 14:46):

Alternatives:

1. Perhaps because they had a forceful tendency to resemble each other a bit too much; but mostly, I believe, because I felt that they fell out of nowhere, [what would be an appropriate translation of "comme ça à la queue-leue-leue"?], without explaining where they came from or where they were going.

2. Perhaps because they tended, forcefully, to resemble each other a bit too much; but mostly, I believe, because I felt that they fell out of nowhere, [what would be an appropriate translation of "comme ça à la queue-leue-leue"?], without explaining where they came from or where they were going.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 17 2020 at 14:51):

@John Baez I don't think that is what is intended. I think Grothendieck is simply expressing his frustration here that the problems he encountered then lacked motivation.

John Baez (Oct 17 2020 at 14:51):

Yes, I deleted my comment as soon as I read your translation.

John Baez (Oct 17 2020 at 14:51):

By the way, it's ungrammatical to say "to resemble with each other" - it should be "to resemble each other".

Ralph Sarkis (Oct 17 2020 at 14:58):

I propose "Perhaps because they tended, in the long run, to all look the same; but above all, I believe, because they came out of nowhere, one after the other, without revealing where they came from nor where they led to."

Unfortunately, it's less poetic and uses less personification.

Ralph Sarkis (Oct 17 2020 at 14:58):

"à force" does not have anything to do with force, it means something like "in the long run" with a bit of "being bounded to" and something to do with repetition.

John Baez (Oct 17 2020 at 16:43):

"Lead to" or "led to"? The rest of the sentence is in the past tense.

Ralph Sarkis (Oct 17 2020 at 17:58):

"led to", thanks.

Jason Erbele (Oct 18 2020 at 07:29):

Ralph Sarkis' version seems to get the gist of the statement in clear English. Here's my attempt to tweak it to give back some of the poetic flow. I do not guarantee that I succeed in the attempt to be poetic, nor do I vouch for how faithful it is to the original French.

Perhaps because they tended, in the long run, to all look a bit too much alike; but above all, I believe, because it seemed a bit too much like they fell from the sky, one after another, saying nothing of where they came from or what they would lead to.

Jason Erbele (Oct 18 2020 at 07:29):

I've been staring at this for too long, so I may have only succeeded at making the translation flow more awkwardly than it did before. :oh_no:

John Baez (Oct 18 2020 at 16:26):

I like it. I'm really curious who he's talking about!

David Michael Roberts (Oct 18 2020 at 23:17):

I like it!

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 19 2020 at 02:47):

He is not really talking about anyone. Here "they" means "problems of the textbook".

John Baez (Oct 19 2020 at 03:18):

Oh!

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 29 2020 at 04:09):

What would be an appropriate translation of the following phrase, "Et le reste de l’année j’employais mon temps du mieux que je pouvais, pendant que le programme prévu était débité inexorablement, à longueur de trimestres."?

Is "And I spent the rest of the year as best as I could while the planned program was relentlessly churned through throughout trimesters" ok?

Jason Erbele (Oct 29 2020 at 07:25):

I take it you are translating "débité" as "churned through"? I don't know French well enough to know how reasonable that is, but it is a bit awkward to have "through throughout" like that. English does have a cognate "inexorably" for "inexorablement", which could be used instead of the synonym "relentlessly". Not a criticism, per se – just a note.

The main thing that strikes me as unidiomatic English is "throughout trimesters". Google translate gives me "throughout quarters", which seems worse, both being unidiomatic and appearing to be less accurate. I hesitate to add a definite article (throughout the trimesters), even though it would improve the English flow. Perhaps "across trimesters" or "each trimester" works better? So something like:

"And I spent the rest of the year as best as I could, while the planned program was inexorably churned through, across trimesters."

I'm still not happy with it as a stand-alone sentence, so maybe someone else can polish it up better, or maybe it works better in context.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 29 2020 at 07:34):

Jason Erbele said:

I take it you are translating "débité" as "churned through"? I don't know French well enough to know how reasonable that is, but it is a bit awkward to have "through throughout" like that. English does have a cognate "inexorably" for "inexorablement", which could be used instead of the synonym "relentlessly". Not a criticism, per se – just a note.

Indeed, it sounds awkward to me as well.

Chetan Vuppulury (Dec 02 2020 at 14:42):

@Sayantan Roy can you share your translation?

সায়ন্তন রায় (Dec 02 2020 at 14:49):

Chetan Vuppulury said:

Sayantan Roy can you share your translation?

Of this particular sentence?

Chetan Vuppulury (Dec 02 2020 at 15:29):

No, till how much ever you've completed?

সায়ন্তন রায় (Apr 03 2021 at 13:30):

@Chetan Vuppulury Sorry for the ridiculously late reply. Somehow I missed your message. But no, I can't share with you the full pdf yet (because it is still under development). I can share with you the forward though.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Apr 04 2021 at 13:04):

I am currently translating the part of R&S where Grothendieck talks about his tweleve most important ideas. Since the terms are mathematical, I would highly appreciate if anyone provides me with an english translation of them. Here they are:

1. Produits tensoriels topologiques et espaces nucléaires.
2. Dualité "continue" et "discrète" (catégories dérivées, "six opérations").
3. Yoga Riemann-Roch-Grothendieck (K-théorie, relation à la théorie des intersections).
4. Schémas.
5. Topos.
6. Cohomologie étale et $\ell$-adique.
7. Motifs et groupe de Galois motivique ($\oplus$-catégories de Grothendieck).
8. Cristaux et cohomologie cristalline, yoga "coefficients de De Rham", "coefficient de Hodge". . .
9. "Algèbre topologique" : $\infty$-champs, dérivateurs ; formalisme cohomologique des topos, comme inspiration pour une nouvelle algèbre homotopique.
10. Topologie modérée.
11. Yoga de géométrie algébrique anabélienne, théorie de Galois-Teichmüller.
12. Point de vue "schématique" ou "arithmétique" pour les polyèdres réguliers et les configurations régulières en tous genres.

Tim Hosgood (Apr 04 2021 at 13:08):

1. topological tensor products and nuclear spaces
2. “continuous” and “discrete” duality (derived categories, six operations)
3. the yoga of Grothendieck–Riemann–Roch (K-theory, relation to intersection theory)
4. schemes
5. topoi
6. étale and $\ell$-adic cohomology

Jason Erbele (Apr 04 2021 at 13:11):

Ha. Tim got to the first half while I was writing up my own attempts. So far we are in perfect agreement.

Tim Hosgood (Apr 04 2021 at 13:12):

7. motives and the motivic Galois group (Grothendieck $\oplus$-categories)
8. crystals and crystalline cohomology, the yoga of “de Rham coefficients”, “Hodge coefficients”,...
9. “topological algebra”: $\infty$-stacks, derivators; cohomological formalism of topoi, as inspiration for a new homotopical algebra
10. (i’m not too sure)
11. the yoga of anabelian algebraic geometry, Galois–Teichmüller theory
12. the “scheme-theoretic” or “arithmetic” point of view for regular polyhedral and regular configurations in all genuses

Jason Erbele (Apr 04 2021 at 13:20):

The literal for 10. would be moderate topology. I am unfamiliar with the term, but I do get some French results when I search the web for "moderate topology" Grothendieck. I also get tame topology as a keyword in one of the search results, but I'm uncertain if this is the same thing.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Apr 04 2021 at 13:29):

10 is tame topology as given in this book.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Apr 04 2021 at 13:32):

Tim Hosgood said:

5. topoi

Isn't "topos" the literal translation of 5?

John Baez (Apr 04 2021 at 16:54):

All 12 ideas are listed in English on the Wikipedia article about Grothendieck.

Tim Hosgood (Apr 05 2021 at 00:06):

John Baez said:

All 12 ideas are listed in English on the Wikipedia article about Grothendieck.

ah, even better!

David Michael Roberts (Apr 05 2021 at 09:31):

Topos in French is both plural and singular, and the previous item (schemes) is plural, as is 1,2 and 7.

Joshua Meyers (Apr 05 2021 at 16:44):

Thanks for translating this! I've read the translated portion and would much like to read the rest.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Apr 07 2021 at 11:48):

We are planning to upload part of the translation soon. We have not decided on the logistics part yet.

Mateo Carmona (Apr 12 2021 at 23:51):

If you are interested in the translation there is associated a Zulip server for projects around Grothendieck https://grothendieckthemes.zulipchat.com/join/pcwmo4i66vbxhs6spafg7e5a on the stream ‘translation: res’ you can find this.

সায়ন্তন রায় (May 30 2021 at 07:26):

What would be an appropriate translation for the following sentence,

• Cette vaste vision unificatrice peut être décrite comme une géométrie nouvelle. C’est celle, paraît-il, dont Kronecker avait rêvé, au siècle dernier32. Mais la réalité (qu’un rêve hardi parfois fait pressentir ou entrevoir, et qu’il nous encourage à découvrir. . . ) dépasse à chaque fois en richesse et en résonance le rêve même le plus téméraire ou le plus profond. Sûrement, pour plus d’un des volets de cette géométrie nouvelle (si ce n’est pour tous), personne, la veille encore du jour où il est apparu, n’y aurait songé - l’ouvrier lui-même pas plus que les autres.

I did part of it as follows,

• This vast unifying vision can be described as a new geometry. It is the one, it would seem, that Kronecker had dreamed of in the last century. But the reality (which a daring dream sometimes suggests or glimpses, and encourages us to discover...) always exceeds even the most audacious or profound dreams in richness and resonance. Sûrement, pour plus d’un des volets de cette géométrie nouvelle (si ce n’est pour tous), personne, la veille encore du jour où il est apparu, n’y aurait songé - l’ouvrier lui-même pas plus que les autres.

And also of the following sentence, (I am quoting the full paragraph for context)

• Je ne connais ce "rêve de Kronecker" que par ouïe dire, quand quelqu’un (peut-être bien que c’était John Tate) m’a dit que j’étais en train de réaliser ce rêve-là. Dans l’enseignement que j’ai reçu de mes aînés, les références historiques étaient rarissimes, et j’ai été nourri, non par la lecture d’auteurs tant soit peu anciens ni même contemporains, mais surtout par la communication, de vive voix ou par lettres interposées, avec d’autres mathématiciens, à commencer par mes aînés. La principale, peut-être même la seule inspiration extérieure pour le soudain et vigoureux démarrage de la théorie des schémas en 1958, a été l’article de
  Serre bien connu sous le sigle FAC ("Faisceaux algébriques cohérents"), paru quelques années plus tôt. Celui-ci mis à part, ma principale inspiration dans le développement ultérieur de la théorie s’est trouvée découler d’elle-même, et se renouveler au fil des ans, par les seules exigences de simplicité et de cohérence internes, dans un effort pour rendre compte dans ce nouveau contexte, de ce qui était "bien connu" en géométrie algébrique (et que j’assimilais au fur et à mesure qu’il se transformait entre mes mains), et de que ce "connu" me faisait pressentir.

My translation is the following:

• I only know about this ``Kronecker's dream'' from hearsay, when someone (maybe it was John Tate) told me that I was making that dream come true. In the lessons that I have received from my elders, historical references were extremely rare, and I was nourished, not by reading authors who were either ancient or even contemporary, but above all through communication, orally or by interposed letters, with other mathematicians, starting with my elders. The main one, perhaps even the only external inspiration for the sudden and vigorous start of the theory of schemes in 1958, was Serre's article, well known under the acronym FAC (''Faisceau Algébriques Cohérents''), which had appeared a few years earlier. Celui-ci mis à part, ma principale inspiration dans le développement ultérieur de la théorie s’est trouvée découler d’elle-même, et se renouveler au fil des ans, par les seules exigences de simplicité et de cohérence internes, dans un effort pour rendre compte dans ce nouveau contexte, de ce qui était "bien connu" en géométrie algébrique (et que j’assimilais au fur et à mesure qu’il se transformait entre mes mains), et de que ce "connu" me faisait pressentir.

Ralph Sarkis (May 30 2021 at 08:41):

First one (it sounds weird to me in French):

Certainly, for more than one aspect of this new geometry (if not all), noone, even on the eve of its arrival, would have thought of it - no more the worker than the others.

Ralph Sarkis (May 30 2021 at 09:03):

Second one (that's a huge sentence and I don't know if the punctuation works the same in English and French):

Apart from this, my main inspiration in the further developments of the theory was unveiled* and renewed as years passed, only by the requirements of internal simplicity and coherence in the efforts made to recount, in this new setting, what was "well-known" in algebraic geometry (which I was assimilating as it transformed by my hands) and what the "known" lead me to foresee.

*I am not completely satisfied of this word.

সায়ন্তন রায় (May 30 2021 at 14:42):

Ralph Sarkis said:

Second one (that's a huge sentence and I don't know if the punctuation works the same in English and French):

Apart from this, my main inspiration in the further developments of the theory was unveiled* and renewed as years passed, only by the requirements of internal simplicity and coherence in the efforts made to recount, in this new setting, what was "well-known" in algebraic geometry (which I was assimilating as it transformed by my hands) and what the "known" lead me to foresee.

*I am not completely satisfied of this word.

Very interesting, in the meantime, I did the following translation (admittedly awkward english, but still..),

• Apart from this, my main inspiration in the further development of the theory was found to stem from itself, renewing over the years, by the sole exigencies of simplicity and internal coherence, in an effort of giving a compte rendu in this new context, of what was "well known'' in algebraic geometry (and which I assimilated as it was transformed in my hands), and what of this "known'' made me sense.

John Baez (May 30 2021 at 14:58):

This is fascinating! By the way, it's common to refer to this dream of Kronecker as Kronecker's Jugendtraum. Kronecker wrote about "mein liebster Jugendtraum" - the dearest dream of my youth - in a letter to Dedekind.

Thank you very much for your kind lines of the 12th. I believe they are to give me a welcome occasion to let you know that I believe to have overcome today the last of many difficulties that were still withstanding the completion of an investigation which I had taken up again more intensely in the last few months. It concerns the dearest dream of my youth, to wit, the proof that the Abelian equations with square roots of rational numbers are exhausted by the transformation equations of elliptic functions with singular moduli exactly in the same way as the rational integral Abelian equations by the cyclotomic equations.

But people keep expanding the definition of "Kronecker's Jugendtraum":

Today, Kronecker's Jugendtraum refers to the problem of generalising the theory of complex multiplication, specifically the achievement of explicitly constructing all abelian extensions of an imaginary quadratic number field by adjoining certain values of certain transcendental functions, to arbitrary number fields. In this generality, the problem is still out of reach.

John Baez (May 31 2021 at 23:28):

By the way

this "Kronecker's dream''

is a bit unidiomatic for English, since we don't say things like "this Fred's foot". I would probably leave out the word "this".

ww (Jun 01 2021 at 06:55):

John Baez said:

this "Kronecker's dream''

is a bit unidiomatic for English, since we don't say things like "this Fred's foot". I would probably leave out the word "this".

The original reads to me like the "this" and the scare quotes are intended to emphasise 'this thing that I didn't really know about that people were calling "Kronecker's dream"' but I agree it's smoother in English without. There's a lot of texture packed into the original that seems hard to capture accurately in translation.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Jun 01 2021 at 12:16):

Indeed, it is more along the lines of 'this so-called "Kronecker's dream" '...

John Baez (Jun 02 2021 at 01:44):

Yes,

this "Kronecker's dream"

does indeed sound like 'this thing that I didn't really know about that people were calling "Kronecker's dream"'.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Jun 12 2021 at 10:09):

Following is a first draft of the translation of the preface of R&S. It is not complete yet and will be checked further before uploading to the github page. But I think that you may be interested to read what is translated till now.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Jun 12 2021 at 10:12):

R_S.pdf

সায়ন্তন রায় (Sep 20 2021 at 08:22):

We have started uploading the translation to the github page. This will be continuously revised and updated. Feel free to comment.

সায়ন্তন রায় (Oct 01 2021 at 12:48):

Grothendieck's ReS is going to be published by Gallimard in November.