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John Baez (Dec 14 2020 at 07:01):There's a nice discussion of military funding here:
Looking around, I was interested to learn that Mac Lane thanks the US military for funding in the introductions to his books Homology and Categories for the Working Mathematician.
Fawzi Hreiki (Dec 14 2020 at 09:56):I think the unfortunate reality is that a lot of scientific funding is, and always has been, tied to the military. The Cold War was one of the primary reasons why so much scientific development happened around that time in the US and in Russia - even development in fields not a priori related to the war.
Jules Hedges (Dec 14 2020 at 10:28):This is a tradition going back at least as far as Napoleon, Fourier and the École Polytechnique
Fawzi Hreiki (Dec 14 2020 at 10:50):Yeah exactly
Morgan Rogers (he/him) (Dec 14 2020 at 10:57):Fawzi Hreiki said:
I think the unfortunate reality is that a lot of scientific funding is, and always has been, tied to the military.
Is this an appeal to tradition to suggest that accepting military funding is somehow unavoidable..?
Fabrizio Genovese (Dec 14 2020 at 11:17):@[Mod] Morgan Rogers totally agree. Yes, a lot of funding is tied to the military. Always has been (meme reference intended). Still, I think it is a moral imperative for us to say and keep saying that this is not how things are supposed to be. I understand how for some people military funding is the only form of funding available, but there's still a big difference imho between just accepting it and accepting it while being vocal about finding an altenative.
Fawzi Hreiki (Dec 14 2020 at 11:25):@[Mod] Morgan Rogers No, of course not. Just pointing out the state of affairs.
Fawzi Hreiki (Dec 14 2020 at 11:26):I don’t know whether or not it’s unavoidable at the macro scale. That’s a sociological and political question.
Fawzi Hreiki (Dec 14 2020 at 11:27):It’s probably avoidable at the individual level but surely at personal cost. But what’s an ethical decision anyway if it has no repercussions?
Fabrizio Genovese (Dec 14 2020 at 11:27):It also depends a lot on the country you are in. In the US a lot of state funded development and research is tied to the military. In the EU the role of the military in society is way more marginal
Fabrizio Genovese (Dec 14 2020 at 11:27):(And also on the sector you work in. I guess aerospace engineering is much more funded by the military than, say, cancer research?)
Fawzi Hreiki (Dec 14 2020 at 11:29):Yeah sure but there are still ethical dilemmas regarding funding if one wants to look into it properly. Take for example the Huawei programme with the IHES. That is not directly military related, but Huawei works very closely with the Chinese military.
Fawzi Hreiki (Dec 14 2020 at 11:30):Basically, what I’m saying is that the situation is much less black and white.
Henry Story (Dec 14 2020 at 11:31):Organisations that are able to think strategically will be interested in advanced fields like pure maths. Hence the military, as long as they are not decadent, will be among those interested. The others, in so far as they think strategically will look somewhat like the military.
Henry Story (Dec 14 2020 at 11:34):The military furthermore is not one thing, just like capitalism is not one thing. It can be implemented in many different ways. Eg. In Switzerland every male citizen goes every year to the military for a week or two for over 20 years. They have guns at home to defend themselves, bunkers against nuclear attack. But it is a non-aggressive force (which led them not to take sides in the second WW for which they still get a barage of criticism), and is built on fundamental democratic principles.
Fawzi Hreiki (Dec 14 2020 at 11:38):Sure, I totally agree. It’s just a conversation worth having.